PDA

View Full Version : How to pay for a repower/refit


WoundUpMarine
02-07-2013, 06:55 AM
For you guys that have gone through big re-powers or refits, how have you paid for them? Bank loans, credit cards, home equity loans, lots of cash in hand...? I am going to start putting some money aside for some big projects id like to do to the boat next winter and am curious how everyone has paid for the big expenditures.

Estimator
02-07-2013, 07:03 AM
In 2005 when I did my repower I was able to refinance my boat and with the upgrades believe it or not had equity in my boat and the bank was able to lend me the money for the job. It worked out for me because my original loan had a much higher rate and with the rate adjustment my payment was lower after the repower.
Not sure if this is possible now with tighter lending rules. I would try to use a banks money rather than cash on hand. Just my opinion.

BillD
02-07-2013, 07:25 AM
For you guys that have gone through big re-powers or refits, how have you paid for them? Bank loans, credit cards, home equity loans, lots of cash in hand...? I am going to start putting some money aside for some big projects id like to do to the boat next winter and am curious how everyone has paid for the big expenditures.

IMO:

if you are using the boat "commercially" then consider financing with a lending institution or if you have one a home equity line of credit.
Why? You have a "partner" in the interest expense and the ability to "write the interest off......Who is the partner? .......good old Uncle Sam.

NEVER use a credit card for borrowing AND carrying balances. Credit card companies get legal "loan shark rates" @ 14%-19%.

If the boat is used for "pleasure"...put off any major costs until you have the cash. Why?? NEVER be a "slave" to a lending institution unless the borrowing is for a home to live in.

FWIW,

Bill D

tunaorlater
02-07-2013, 07:34 AM
Cash for 90% of it. When that ran out I begged my daddy! Pathetic but true.

MBILL
02-07-2013, 08:03 AM
Gotta agree with BILLD. If you're recreational use cash. No loans for this type of expense IMO.

powderpro
02-07-2013, 08:09 AM
Cash for 90% of it. When that ran out I begged my daddy! Pathetic but true.

That's not pathetic, 90% cash is better than most and the interest daddy could get from you is better than what the bank would pay him. I agree with some of the others, if it's a pleasure boat, I would be real careful bringing on more debt, although rates are low. I guess it depends on what your priorities are, but for something recreational/pleasure, I would not go in debt; if it's a business opportunity and how you make your living, then I would cautiously go in debt while still using as much cash as possible.

tunaorlater
02-07-2013, 08:30 AM
Interest? He's my father! Lol. He was paid back quickly.

I think it all depends on your situation. I see no problem with borrowing money to buy a boat if it's not putting you in a situation where it's a burden. Most people finance a new car when they could go out and buy a good used one for cash. If you can get a nice big boat for say $500 a month or buy a smaller one for cash and not be as happy I say go for it as long as the $500 isn't going to break the bank. Like I said it depends on your situation, if it's going to be tight on the wallet think before you act. My next build will most likely have a small note.

powderpro
02-07-2013, 08:36 AM
Interest at the bank is what, 0.05%? So if you paid him 0.5% interest, he's money ahead :D.

MouseTrap
02-07-2013, 08:46 AM
True, buy him a beer, he's still ahead.

Unfortunately, in today's day and age, if a child repays their parents AT ALL, they are ahead :(.

I remember when my sister was a teenager, she asked my dad... "dad, can I borrow $20?". This went on for a couple of months. At one of those requests, my father pulled a $20 out of his wallet and said "borrowing implies that you will pay me back, do you want to borrow $20, or do you want me to give you $20?". My sister immediately snatched the $20 out of his had and said "give me the $20".

Lesson learned :D

MASTERENEGADE
02-07-2013, 08:54 AM
Budgeting....
Went to college for accounting got my degree, now i sell fishing tackle and charter the boat

knew a refit was coming, so i planned and put it into the budget.

If the engine or tranny blew up, i may not have been able to plan accordingly.

tunaorlater
02-07-2013, 08:56 AM
True, buy him a beer, he's still ahead.

Unfortunately, in today's day and age, if a child repays their parents AT ALL, they are ahead :(.

I remember when my sister was a teenager, she asked my dad... "dad, can I borrow $20?". This went on for a couple of months. At one of those requests, my father pulled a $20 out of his wallet and said "borrowing implies that you will pay me back, do you want to borrow $20, or do you want me to give you $20?". My sister immediately snatched the $20 out of his had and said "give me the $20".

Lesson learned :D

Lol my father in law "borrows" money once a month or so. Never seen a dime back. He's a good guy and great to my wife and kids so it's all good, he just never had the best financial luck in life.

jerseysportfisher
02-07-2013, 09:13 AM
The easiest way was what i did, you wait for some fool to put 80K in a repower, then go broke and put the boat up forsale. Then YOU come in and snatch it as a really really really low price.

guitarman
02-07-2013, 09:47 AM
ya that's seem to happen some doesn't it that is a good rule of tumb, if the boat is making you money than a note may be necessary keep it as small as possible and pay extra on the note even if its just a few dollars. we paid our business and our house off by following that method. boat purchases we pay cash and get the boat we can pay cash for.[our boats are pleasure boats]
that's why in a pleasure boat you may be better off with a gas engine no matter how i work the numbers on a 28 footer or less, any way you can buy alot of gas for the price differance and a repower is much cheaper. That being said part of me still wants a diesel boat.

Hooper
02-07-2013, 11:30 AM
That being said part of me still wants a diesel boat.

It's the sounds and the smell! :lol:

powderpro
02-07-2013, 01:44 PM
It's the sounds and the smell! :lol:

And the safety, easier to resell, maintain its value better, the turbo whine, the economy, not loading your boat up with a potential bomb, carry less fuel and go the same distance, stuff like that. :)

Guitarman- On a new build, how much less is the gasoline engine/trans package than say a 225 - 275 hp diesel? My dad was thinking of building a 34' aluminum bowpicker and the cost for twin Volvo D4 Duoprops (225hp each) versus twin Volvo 5.7 liter's Duoprops (300hp each) was about $10,000 per engine/duoprop package. He figured the fuel savings, plus the safety factor, plus the much higher resale value and more appeal at resale, would make going with the diesels a no-brainer.

What gasoline engine available has the power to push a 28' downeast a respectable speed? Can you purchase a new big block and put it in a new boat? I thought the biggest new gassers available for inboards were 6.0's, at least that's the biggest Crusader offers. I don't think a 6.0 gas is going to push a 28' Downeast very well when its loaded with fuel, food, crew, and gear.

jerseysportfisher
02-07-2013, 01:57 PM
mercruiser 8.2 and crusader 8.1 Captains

powderpro
02-07-2013, 02:06 PM
mercruiser 8.2 and crusader 8.1 Captains

Anyone compared the price of one of these with say a D4 300hp?

jerseysportfisher
02-07-2013, 02:10 PM
Anyone compared the price of one of these with say a D4 300hp?


i can tell you the maintenance on the two is MUCH cheaper then a volvo anything

jerseysportfisher
02-07-2013, 02:14 PM
8.2 merc bobtail only 16K

jerseysportfisher
02-07-2013, 02:17 PM
D4 bobtail 300hp 22K

jerseysportfisher
02-07-2013, 02:19 PM
an 8.2 380hp MPI from Michigan 13K 420hp version 15K

jerseysportfisher
02-07-2013, 02:26 PM
Potato-potato-potato-potato :D


gxb_L5cA1rw

starrfish
02-07-2013, 03:21 PM
every year i put aside some money that the boat makes, its a must ! when my motor decided to go on permanent vacation, i was only about 8K short of the whole price tag.. still sucked, but was able to swing it.
when doing a cash deal, i have them keep it off the invoice. it limits my accountant asking "where did it come from?".. instead of me just saying 'i got a great deal'.

tunaorlater
02-07-2013, 03:58 PM
D4 bobtail 300hp 22K


6k would be a no brainier to me if those numbers are correct.

jerseysportfisher
02-07-2013, 04:39 PM
6k would be a no brainier to me if those numbers are correct.

the only difference is is the d4 is more comparable with a small block, not like the yanmar lh, which is comparable to a big block.

powderpro
02-07-2013, 04:53 PM
the only difference is is the d4 is more comparable with a small block, not like the yanmar lh, which is comparable to a big block.

The 300hp D4 is over 500 ft/lbs peak torque, that's a lot more than a 5.7 or 6.0 small block. That is comparable to big block torque output. My guess would be the 300hp D4 would push a boat similar to that 385hp 8.1 gasser, but burn less fuel and you could save weight by carrying less fuel to go the same distance, and the boat would be worth a lot more than the extra $6k-$9k you had to spend on the diesel engine.

jerseysportfisher
02-07-2013, 05:15 PM
The 300hp D4 is over 500 ft/lbs peak torque, that's a lot more than a 5.7 or 6.0 small block. That is comparable to big block torque output. My guess would be the 300hp D4 would push a boat similar to that 385hp 8.1 gasser, but burn less fuel and you could save weight by carrying less fuel to go the same distance, and the boat would be worth a lot more than the extra $6k-$9k you had to spend on the diesel engine.

yes your right the cranked up version is 518 ft lbs, i appologize the one i saw was 500NM which is 255 ftlbs. How ever i can stick with the arguement, a good built 383 (350ci shortblock) will put out 490 ft lbs. Yes the volvo will be more efficient. however, at 9k for a 383 vs the volvos hefty tag. For a rec boater or in shore commercial guy, it makes sense. a good setup boat (reduction x wheel) with a 383 , can motor around at a good rate @ 7gph

powderpro
02-07-2013, 05:33 PM
500 NM is about 360 ft/lbs (not 255 ft/lbs), about what a 300hp small block would be putting out. I've had a very nice streetable 383 stroker, and it wasn't putting out 490 ft/lbs (probably more like 410-420 ft/lbs). I will agree there are applications where a gasser makes sense, but if you are building new in the 26' and up size, trying to save $6k-10k on the engine by going to a gasser does not pencil out in my opinion, but I'm not the Obama administration, so I won't tell you what you need to do in life ;).

jerseysportfisher
02-07-2013, 06:54 PM
i think your off on that 6-10k difference, if that was the case i'm pretty sure every one would be a diesel. i can tell you a new yanmar 6ly is close to 33K.

here's a mild 383, 5K 450ft lbs, they had one a while ago in an article natural aspirated 700hp 600 ft lbs no power adders. I made little over 500 at the rear wheels with a 306, and a few lbs of boost on iron heads. very streetable car.

Marine 383 Engine Specs (MBP3830CTC) | BluePrint Engines (http://www.blueprintengines.com/index.php/marine-mbp3830ctc)

Seabass08
02-07-2013, 07:20 PM
Essex credit will finance a repower as long as they can find comps for your boat. I have looled into it recently. There is some consideration to be given to the fact that interest rates are lower now than they have been in many years and they are on the rise. Just because you take a 5 or 10 year loan doesnt mean you need to take that long to pay if off.

Financing part or all of that repower may be not be a bad idea if you have a realistic plan and timeline to pay it off and the means to do so (this is key).

Financing a repower on a de boat is a different animal than doing so on a clorox bottle with outboards that will be worth peanuts in 10 years. Especially if that boat contributes to your income.

scallywag
02-07-2013, 07:56 PM
I think this was a great thread. I myself am getting some soft spots in the deck of my 1986 25'General Marine. I only use her for recreational fishing and crabbing. She has 1"plywood glassed over heavy but after 27years moisure from the bilge is finally saturating the undersides. I have been putting money aside forawhile but it never accumulates as fast as you would like. Could tackle the job myself but considering time involved would rather have it professionaly done. I'm sure i'll find the right boatyard down here in Md but have had a bad experience in the past. Hard to find anyone who cares or would do repairs as you would do yourself. Wish I was aliitle farther up north to use one of the forum members who have boatyards.
Anyway enjoyed hearing from people in similar situations.

guitarman
02-07-2013, 08:06 PM
on the 26' duffy that i'm having priced out twin 150s are still 25000 less the a 260 yanmar plus no engine box and you have tons of room for larger fuel, waste, and fresh water tank. with the twins i can also have completely enclosed pilot house so i'm leaning in that direction. all the imput from every one help so keep it coming

scallywag
02-07-2013, 08:09 PM
Twin 150s will burn alot more fuel than the yanmar and live half as long wouldn't you think. Plus they don't sound or smell as good. Guess they would be alot faster thuogh.

guitarman
02-07-2013, 08:27 PM
for me i'm thinking of a single 250 and a nice size kicker to get me home. these new 4 strokes are getting so the sip fuel plus with the diesel i can't have the galley up or an enclosed pilot house. i know what you mean though it's a tuff decision and i haven't made it yet. the other thing is the out boards are so quit. plus with the back door shut you can't hardly hear them run.

jerseysportfisher
02-07-2013, 09:05 PM
for me i'm thinking of a single 250 and a nice size kicker to get me home. these new 4 strokes are getting so the sip fuel plus with the diesel i can't have the galley up or an enclosed pilot house. i know what you mean though it's a tuff decision and i haven't made it yet. the other thing is the out boards are so quit. plus with the back door shut you can't hardly hear them run.


if you go the outboard route, my experience. Have a big and a kicker kind of sucks. I ran it a long time. The kicker sticks out far, requires a tie bar, i had a tiller and visibility sucked. being they don't run as much that can come around to bite you. Have little power and tough maneuverability. Mine was on a 28 and was 15hp. yamaha makes a nice high thrust unit, not sure it would be a great improvement over what i had. If you go single, the suzuki's swing a bigger prop. Big advantage.

jerseysportfisher
02-07-2013, 09:15 PM
2008 25' Seaway Downeast Coastal Cruiser for sale in Hull, Massachusetts - Yachts of America (http://hull-ma.yachtsofamerica.us/2191/yachts/2008-25-seaway-downeast-coastal-cruiser_17183770.html)

powderpro
02-07-2013, 09:47 PM
on the 26' duffy that i'm having priced out twin 150s are still 25000 less the a 260 yanmar plus no engine box and you have tons of room for larger fuel, waste, and fresh water tank. with the twins i can also have completely enclosed pilot house so i'm leaning in that direction. all the imput from every one help so keep it coming

I like the idea of twin outboards on a 26' boat for the reasons you mentioned (heck of a lot better than a big block gasser under your floor). I love the extra room, smoothness, and quietness of the 4 stroke outboard. If I was looking at 24' - 27', I would be leaning towards outboards. Anything bigger than that, I think the diesel inboard is the best way to go.

I'm surprised that a 260 Yanmar is $25,000 more than twin 150's. Are you getting the outboards for almost free;)? Seriously, are Yanmars that much money? , What was the quote on the Yanmar with transmission? You have the cost of the shaft/rudder/prop with the inboard, but outboards aren't cheap either.

guitarman
02-07-2013, 10:22 PM
Downeast Boat Works 2009 Seaway Maine built 25 coastal cruiser (http://downeastboatworks.com/8101.html)

here is the 2009 seaway i just sold there a great boat just a little small we took this boat from seattle on a 1000 mile trip and it dig great. burns 1/2 gallon an hour at six knots or you can cruise at 26 knots tops about 30 knots This boat has a bow thruster and was a joy to dock

Seabass08
02-07-2013, 10:23 PM
" twin 150s are still 25000 less the a 260 yanmar"

Not a yanmar but a great motor and cheaper than twin outboards...

Steyr Motors MO256H45 Diesel | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/271122132572)

guitarman
02-07-2013, 10:44 PM
" twin 150s are still 25000 less the a 260 yanmar"

Not a yanmar but a great motor and cheaper than twin outboards...

Steyr Motors MO256H45 Diesel | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/271122132572)t a yanmar but a great motor and cheaper than twin outboards...


but i think that would take me back to a engine box wouldn't it?

guitarman
02-07-2013, 11:01 PM
I'm surprised that a 260 Yanmar is $25,000 more than twin 150's. Are you getting the outboards for almost free:wink:? Seriously, are Yanmars that much money? , What was the quote on the

ya that what Nate told me form Atlantic on 26 duffy 25000 difference with the diesel

WoundUpMarine
02-08-2013, 12:49 AM
Thanks for the heads up on essex credit, my local bank has been great to work with on a few other projects of mine as well over the years. Its good to hear everyone's opinion on the matter, but realistically to me, if im looking to re-power including new gear/shaft tube/shaft/prop i'm probably gonna need a loan to get it done as i dont have that much cash on hand, and if i get the loan i could throw the new top/trunk and wash rails on it and be done with everything i wanted to do to the boat. A monthly payment would be easier for me to swing than putting all that cash down at once.

tunaorlater
02-08-2013, 08:07 AM
WoundUpMarine, at some point it's not worth the money to do all the work to an older hull so be carefull what you spend. You don't want to be financially stuck in a boat.

WoundUpMarine
02-08-2013, 10:47 AM
tunaorlater, i agree with you about being smart with working on an older hull. I bought the boat for 20 grand, which i think is a pretty good price, and im hoping i can get everything i want done to it for 60ish(maybe out of my mind on this, i haven't really priced things all that definitively) then i can be in a 30' hull in like new condition for 80 grand. Cant do a new build for that, and i don't see why a solid glass hull wouldn't last me another 10-15 years.

Heck, you can be 60 grand into a truck in no problem, and ill get a heck of a lot more pleasure out of my boat, plus the possibilities of making the boat pay for itself

Seabass08
02-08-2013, 12:18 PM
Woundup, Just remember the overall interest cost of the loan as that adds to your overall investment in the boat. A $60K loan on a 10YR term @ 6% (that was the rate essex gave me) is about $666/month. Just the interest cost over the1st 5 years is nothing to sneeze at:

*********** Yr1 ~ $3,477

*********** Yr2~ $3,198

*********** Yr3~ $2,903

*********** Yr4~ $2,589

*********** Yr5~ $2,255

The total in the 1st five years is over $14,400. It’s just under $20K if you keep the loan for 10 years. Maybe not the end of the world if you kept the boat that long and was able to earn $100K + with it over that period of time and deduct the interest. It’s just something to keep in mind as you try to figure out if this makes sense for you. Loans aren't all bad so long as you understand the true costover time and and its impact on you financially and it makes sense for you. Everyone has different opinions on howmoney should be spent or saved.

jerseysportfisher
02-08-2013, 12:47 PM
tunaorlater, i agree with you about being smart with working on an older hull. I bought the boat for 20 grand, which i think is a pretty good price, and im hoping i can get everything i want done to it for 60ish(maybe out of my mind on this, i haven't really priced things all that definitively) then i can be in a 30' hull in like new condition for 80 grand. Cant do a new build for that, and i don't see why a solid glass hull wouldn't last me another 10-15 years.

Heck, you can be 60 grand into a truck in no problem, and ill get a heck of a lot more pleasure out of my boat, plus the possibilities of making the boat pay for itself


why not put a running take out in out, can find quite a few hino's with gear, mild hours under the 15K mark for 300 hp

jerseysportfisher
02-08-2013, 12:49 PM
Marine Hino Diesel 310 H P W06DTA Eaeb w Hurth Gears Ratio 1 96 Runs Great | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/MARINE-HINO-DIESEL-310-H-P-W06DTA-EAEB-w-Hurth-Gears-Ratio-1-96-RUNS-GREAT-/290716761548?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item43b011bdcc&vxp=mtr)

Mercruiser Made by Hino W06D Six Cyl Diesel Marine Engine Price REDUCED | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mercruiser-made-by-Hino-W06D-six-cyl-diesel-Marine-engine-Price-Reduced-/190795325277?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item2c6c499f5d&vxp=mtr)

Hino Marine Diesel 310 HP W06D TI | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/HINO-MARINE-DIESEL-310-HP-W06D-TI-/321067797101?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item4ac121ca6d&vxp=mtr)

jerseysportfisher
02-08-2013, 12:52 PM
Caterpillar 3116DITA Marine Diesel Engine 300HP | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/CATERPILLAR-3116DITA-MARINE-DIESEL-ENGINE-300HP-/261156522511?pt=BI_Heavy_Equipment_Parts&hash=item3cce244a0f&vxp=mtr)


New Remanned 6LY2 Ste 420 HP Marine Diesel Engine | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Remanned-6LY2-STE-420-Hp-Marine-Diesel-Engine-/230817076460?pt=Boat_Parts_Accessories_Gear&hash=item35bdc514ec&vxp=mtr)