Buyer beware?

TimP

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We have been monitoring this post and even though we felt our integrity had been questioned, we thought it best to remain silent until now. Our 2002 Yanmar 370 engine has 348.3 hours on it. Most of that was put on in 2007 through 2008 when we cruised from Maine to North Carolina. DG was hauled & stored inside from 11/2008 until 5/2009 when we moved back aboard full time. At that time, the engine hours were 324.3. We lived aboard year round from 5/2009 until 9/2014. During those years the only ”cruising“ we did was moving from our summer mooring to our winter dock, or to our yacht club’s dock to fill the water tanks.
In September 2014, we hauled out with 337.4 on the meter. DG sat on the hard from 9/2014 until 7/2018.
Although our plans changed and we didn’t launch in May 2017, we changed the oil and polished the fuel with 337.4 engine hours. We had an insurance survey in August 2017. The decision to change the oil was based on how long it had been since the prior oil change in November 2009 at 329.2 hours.
Since our July 2018 launch, DG has only moved from our mooring to a dock for in-water winter storage.
The current meter reading is 348.3. Doing the math for you, we have put 10.9 hours on the engine since 2014; 19.1 hours since 2009. We have not run the engine for less than a 1/2 hour in all the time we‘ve owned her. Maybe we are idiots for doing what we think is best for our engine.
The reason we are selling our boat is because we have not used it since we moved off in 2014. Yes, we should have been more proactive about selling over the last 7 years. Yes, we have mixed feelings about selling our former home. But, we did have a verbal agreement to sell our boat at what we considered to be below market. We had no problem with the buyer’s contingencies of requiring a trial run, marine survey, or mechanical inspection prior to purchase, although we did reiterate that an analysis would be inconclusive with less than 20 hours on the engine since the previous oil change.
The buyer came to see our boat without a broker. He hired a buyers broker to write up a purchase agreement after we had agreed on a sales price, with the understanding that he alone would be responsible for paying a commission. Unfortunately, the broker used the standard yacht purchase and sale agreement and listed himself as both the listing and selling broker. He was neither to us. Calls were made to both the broker and buyer to request a contract without the broker being named in the sale. We felt the buyer and broker had their own agreement separate from ours. When the 2nd agreement arrived via email, there had been no change made to the listing and selling broker clause. We drafted our own agreement that we forwarded to the buyer stating “If this works for you we can figure out how to get them signed and back to each of us. You will notice there is no mention of your broker. The deal you have with him is between you and him.”
It is unfortunate that the buyer thought that we were trying to hide something about our engine and took to this forum with a “Buyer Beware“ subject. Such a title is bound to get lots of attention. It got ours. We stayed out of it until the picture of our boat was posted.
We love our boat. She is a modified lobster boat. She needs someone to love her and spend money on cosmetics. Her engine is strong. She will make a great cruiser/home to some lucky buyer.
You can see a short video taken from just inside the aft main salon during the move to our mooring in May 2021 on our webpage.
Osmond Beal 38 Dorothy Gale website
 

TimP

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People are funny. Some don’t give a shit about anything and some worry About everything. I bet someone a long time ago told him ‘ if you start it , run it ‘ . And he never forgot . If you like the boat and can make a financial deal , then set up a proper trail and go forward. Maybe he really took care of it And doesn’t want to break his own rules .
Please see our reply below
 

TimP

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I am with Chortle, FWIW. this is not necessarily a walk away, IMO. I both bought and sold in 2021.

In general the rule is you do a static exam , maybe even on the hard. Come up with a price and deposit and then survey, with an absolute or near absolute right to walk away. Often you have never heard the engine until survey - I never have.

Sellers don't want to run their boat for every manure kicking Looky Louie who shows up, and the last ten guys to look at it might have been unqualified jerks - not your fault. So, declining to run the boat or take you out without a deposit and a deal does not offend me per se.

(yet...A really recent oil change can be a trouble sign for just the reason you suggest. ...so,How many hours were on that engine 4 years ago?)

You are buying a boat, not a new friend, and some sellers are odd ducks. so what.

do you like this boat and the pricing? if yes to both then maybe pursue some diligence with the seller on both of these: engine and oil. is he evasive? does he have a tale which makes sense?

after that you could easily say "look, Fred. I really like the SS Run Away if she runs like she looks and you say. But I don't want to waste your time or mine. If we make a deal the vessel is tied up for weeks, and you lose other buyers. If we make a deal and then the engine flunks I am out time and survey cost, and you lose time - we both lose. FYI, my surveyor is Sherlock Holmes, world's fussiest diesel guy, and my oil lab is former NASCAR guys. If there is a problem with that engine my guys will find it, guaranteed, so please know that up front. Do you want to make a deal at $x or not? let me know"

if i a Fred and I know my engine is trash I will flinch, dance or both. but if i am fred and i believe in my engine, i make a deal with you.

the other factor you cannot control is the Crazy Other Buyer - who will skip survey and swallow whatever tripe Fred feeds him. lots of COB's out there.

good luck either way!!
Please see our reply
 

TimP

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If a potential buyer comes from 6 hours away, I would never consider that a tire kicker. The market is crazy but common sense needs to rule the situation.
I like Crabboater's approach. You definitely don't want to waste 4 weeks or more plus $1000 to find out the engine has major problems in the survey. A serious offer that includes running the engine for you pre-survey should do the trick.
Please see our reply
 

TimP

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Maybe the guy really knows he needs to sell the boat. Family telling him it’s time, to sell.But sometimes it’s tough to let it go. He will think of ways to make it difficult, so the boat doesn’t sell.
Please see our reply
 

TimP

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Bad salesmanship should not be a deal breaker, you are buying the boat, not their services. If they are getting a call a day then yes, they may be getting tired of tire kickers, trips to the boat; running the engine for five minutes won't hurt it but doing it once or twice a day for a couple of weeks is tiresome.

What kind of boat is it? What is he asking for it?

If you are buying the boat it does not cost you anything to engage a broker, it is the seller who is directly paying the brokerage fees. If the boat is selling for less than, say $50k, then a broker may not be interested but if you are looking at a boat that is worth more that that then then their interest in it grows along with their potential commission.
Please see our reply
 

05bill

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We have been monitoring this post and even though we felt our integrity had been questioned, we thought it best to remain silent until now. Our 2002 Yanmar 370 engine has 348.3 hours on it. Most of that was put on in 2007 through 2008 when we cruised from Maine to North Carolina. DG was hauled & stored inside from 11/2008 until 5/2009 when we moved back aboard full time. At that time, the engine hours were 324.3. We lived aboard year round from 5/2009 until 9/2014. During those years the only ”cruising“ we did was moving from our summer mooring to our winter dock, or to our yacht club’s dock to fill the water tanks.
In September 2014, we hauled out with 337.4 on the meter. DG sat on the hard from 9/2014 until 7/2018.
Although our plans changed and we didn’t launch in May 2017, we changed the oil and polished the fuel with 337.4 engine hours. We had an insurance survey in August 2017. The decision to change the oil was based on how long it had been since the prior oil change in November 2009 at 329.2 hours.
Since our July 2018 launch, DG has only moved from our mooring to a dock for in-water winter storage.
The current meter reading is 348.3. Doing the math for you, we have put 10.9 hours on the engine since 2014; 19.1 hours since 2009. We have not run the engine for less than a 1/2 hour in all the time we‘ve owned her. Maybe we are idiots for doing what we think is best for our engine.
The reason we are selling our boat is because we have not used it since we moved off in 2014. Yes, we should have been more proactive about selling over the last 7 years. Yes, we have mixed feelings about selling our former home. But, we did have a verbal agreement to sell our boat at what we considered to be below market. We had no problem with the buyer’s contingencies of requiring a trial run, marine survey, or mechanical inspection prior to purchase, although we did reiterate that an analysis would be inconclusive with less than 20 hours on the engine since the previous oil change.
The buyer came to see our boat without a broker. He hired a buyers broker to write up a purchase agreement after we had agreed on a sales price, with the understanding that he alone would be responsible for paying a commission. Unfortunately, the broker used the standard yacht purchase and sale agreement and listed himself as both the listing and selling broker. He was neither to us. Calls were made to both the broker and buyer to request a contract without the broker being named in the sale. We felt the buyer and broker had their own agreement separate from ours. When the 2nd agreement arrived via email, there had been no change made to the listing and selling broker clause. We drafted our own agreement that we forwarded to the buyer stating “If this works for you we can figure out how to get them signed and back to each of us. You will notice there is no mention of your broker. The deal you have with him is between you and him.”
It is unfortunate that the buyer thought that we were trying to hide something about our engine and took to this forum with a “Buyer Beware“ subject. Such a title is bound to get lots of attention. It got ours. We stayed out of it until the picture of our boat was posted.
We love our boat. She is a modified lobster boat. She needs someone to love her and spend money on cosmetics. Her engine is strong. She will make a great cruiser/home to some lucky buyer.
You can see a short video taken from just inside the aft main salon during the move to our mooring in May 2021 on our webpage.
Osmond Beal 38 Dorothy Gale website
that is one hell of a boat ! Is she still for sale ?

Thanks,

Bill
 

Crabboater

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Whether deciding a case or raising siblings, hearing both sides of the story is always useful, thanks for the helpful “seller” side of the tale! Sounds like a seller who does believe in his engine. Good luck with the sale, whomever your buyer may be.
 

Downrigga

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That’s what I did - I have a broker to rep me and told the seller that my broker would be representing me and the seller did not answer his emails or sign his contract the seller had no broker. Was selling it him self my broker sent c
2 contracts and the seller did not respond or sign so -….. moving along this is a dead issue or someone else’s
I think you left out a major part of your story in that the seller wanted changes made to the contract and communicuated that to both you and the broker. He infact did respond and sent you a contract and you did not respond back. Why did you leave that part out ? Kind of changes the entire story. I think you did him wrong by starting a thread " buyer beware ". There are a ton of tire kickers out there and people selling shit get sick of tire kickers. At that point he does not know if you are serious or not. One way to eliminate the wonder would have been to respond to his legit concerns. I would have started the motor but i dont blame him for his decision not too.
 

harpoon83

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Please see our reply
A respectable response to our seemingly baseless assumptions.

A low hour motor that has been taken care of should not be a deterrent for a sale in my opinion. You seem to have good history of the motor hours and why they were so low. That is explanation enough for me if I was a buyer. A floating condo understandably have low hours.

As far as running it for short periods of time, just run it until it gets up to temperature and then shut her down and you won't be doing any harm. You will probably be doing the motor a good deed by running fuel through it and not letting the fuel sit in the tank, this will allow you to get away from needing to polish the fuel as well.

Good luck with your future sale
 

Jonathon

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I think you left out a major part of your story in that the seller wanted changes made to the contract and communicuated that to both you and the broker. He infact did respond and sent you a contract and you did not respond back. Why did you leave that part out ? Kind of changes the entire story. I think you did him wrong by starting a thread " buyer beware ". There are a ton of tire kickers out there and people selling shit get sick of tire kickers. At that point he does not know if you are serious or not. One way to eliminate the wonder would have been to respond to his legit concerns. I would have started the motor but i dont blame him for his decision
Stated this already- I’m not hear to bash anyone or any boat - I should not have posted the boat here on this forum.
I did say that the broker was handling the sale- -the seller didn’t send any contact to my broker - sucks this fell apart ,it’s a great boat -Really nice guy- Just too many no’s in our conversations. I reached out to this community because I wanted to see if my concerns about this sale were legit-NOT to bash the seller or the boat- I got feedback that helped me make a decision and I’m good with that - hope the sale goes through for this boat -again it’s a great boat
I wanted but it - and hopefully the sale goes smoothly for both the buyer and the seller next time.
 

Downrigga

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Stated this already- I’m not hear to bash anyone or any boat - I should not have posted the boat here on this forum.
I did say that the broker was handling the sale- -the seller didn’t send any contact to my broker - sucks this fell apart ,it’s a great boat -Really nice guy- Just too many no’s in our conversations. I reached out to this community because I wanted to see if my concerns about this sale were legit-NOT to bash the seller or the boat- I got feedback that helped me make a decision and I’m good with that - hope the sale goes through for this boat -again it’s a great boat
I wanted but it - and hopefully the sale goes smoothly for both the buyer and the seller next time.
If he sent the contract to you you would have passed it on to your broker if you were interested. You made it seem like the seller was not communicuating and its clear he was. He does not deserve the title you put on this thread. Just my opinion that buyer beware is bashing in a way. Maybe you didnt mean it to come across that way. If you want the boat, reach out to each other. Does not seem like you are very far apart.
 
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Running it for a few minutes wouldn't do anything for the fuel in the tanks, just like it wouldn't do any harm to the engine. It would only help the engine by pushing some oil through it, whether it got up to operating temperature or not. Long term idling with loose cold pistons isn't helping it any either.
My big worry, if it was me looking at it, would be the 20 year old cooling system, regardless of engine hours. Traditions was posting about the Cummins Serck after cooler failing over time but its easier to service than Yanmar's. And the cast aluminum Yanmar heat exchanger wont take 1/2 the neglect a copper SenDure will. Sitting still or off doesn't make corrosion stop, especially on cast housings, they'll all turn to Alka-Seltzer over time. If I was looking at this boat I wouldn't care about the low hours, I'd concentrate on the sea water service intervals.
 
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Benny

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After reading through this a couple times I honestly can’t find an ounce of bashing from the OP. Seems to me the guy was genuinely just asking the community for insight, the title was a question not a warning. He may have had a different opinion on the workings of showing a boat, contracts or what not, but never said a single bad thing about the owner or boat.

Share and tell is what these forums are built on, if you can’t reach out to your fellow skipper on matters like this, what’s the point?
 

05bill

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Stated this already- I’m not hear to bash anyone or any boat - I should not have posted the boat here on this forum.
I did say that the broker was handling the sale- -the seller didn’t send any contact to my broker - sucks this fell apart ,it’s a great boat -Really nice guy- Just too many no’s in our conversations. I reached out to this community because I wanted to see if my concerns about this sale were legit-NOT to bash the seller or the boat- I got feedback that helped me make a decision and I’m good with that - hope the sale goes through for this boat -again it’s a great boat
I wanted but it - and hopefully the sale goes smoothly for both the buyer and the seller next time.
in my opinion your not going to find a boat like that for that money ! if your interested i would be on the quickly to the owner. That price for that boat, again in my opinion ,is a terrific opportunity . of course do a survey .
 

Downrigga

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After reading through this a couple times I honestly can’t find an ounce of bashing from the OP. Seems to me the guy was genuinely just asking the community for insight, the title was a question not a warning. He may have had a different opinion on the workings of showing a boat, contracts or what not, but never said a single bad thing about the owner or boat.

Share and tell is what these forums are built on, if you can’t reach out to your fellow skipper on matters like this, what’s the point?
From the sellers perspective it might feel different. He has a boat to sell. The guy was looking for advice based on providing incomplete information. He left out an important detail that the seller clarified. It put the seller in a much better light after the seller jumped on the thread. Had he not left out that information he might have been given different advice that would lead to him owning this beauty instead of the advice he was given. Seller has a boat to sell and does not deserve the title of this thread question mark or no question mark. Just my opinion.
 
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sailor of fortune

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From the sellers perspective it might feel different. He has a boat to sell. The guy was looking for advice based on providing incomplete information. He left out an important detail that the seller clarified. It put the seller in a much better light after the seller jumped on the thread. Had he not left out that information he might have been given different advice that would lead to him owning this beauty instead of the advice he was given. Seller has a boat to sell and does not deserve the title of this thread question mark or no question mark. Just my opinion.
I agree with downrigga! Glad the seller responded and added his side of the story
 

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