FTP 750 VS Cat C12 Acert

lobster12

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Since shopping for a engine for my Calvin Beal 44 project I have had numerous engine manufacturers offerings. Using just using there engine spec information the Caterpillar C-12 has slightly better both power and equal fuel consumption than the FTP 750.

According to there charts:

Cat 705 HP produces 398 HP with 18.9 g/hr @ 1900 RPM. weighs 2308 lbs

FTP 750 HP produces 370 HP with 18.9 g/hr @1900 RPM weighs 3086 llbs

Given the C-12 weighs 778 pounds less and the chart information is correct it would seem that the Cat would out perform the FTP.

Just wondering how these two engines perform in the real world situations?
 

captainlarry84

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Since shopping for a engine for my Calvin Beal 44 project I have had numerous engine manufacturers offerings. Using just using there engine spec information the Caterpillar C-12 has slightly better both power and equal fuel consumption than the FTP 750.

According to there charts:

Cat 705 HP produces 398 HP with 18.9 g/hr @ 1900 RPM. weighs 2308 lbs

FTP 750 HP produces 370 HP with 18.9 g/hr @1900 RPM weighs 3086 llbs

Given the C-12 weighs 778 pounds less and the chart information is correct it would seem that the Cat would out perform the FTP.

Just wondering how these two engines perform in the real world situations?
778 lbs. that a lot of weigh to save. Plus CAT parts are very available & the C-12 sports a great reputation. In addition on resale CAT power is always a big plus.
 

Toolate

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How about the torque numbers? Where is all that weight cast iron vs aluminum has to have some value in the long run? Just thinkiin out loud here but seems like a huge difference there has to be a reason.
 

imr87

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Since shopping for a engine for my Calvin Beal 44 project I have had numerous engine manufacturers offerings. Using just using there engine spec information the Caterpillar C-12 has slightly better both power and equal fuel consumption than the FTP 750.

According to there charts:

Cat 705 HP produces 398 HP with 18.9 g/hr @ 1900 RPM. weighs 2308 lbs

FTP 750 HP produces 370 HP with 18.9 g/hr @1900 RPM weighs 3086 llbs

Given the C-12 weighs 778 pounds less and the chart information is correct it would seem that the Cat would out perform the FTP.

Just wondering how these two engines perform in the real world situations?


How about price? Consider the cost to own? (suggested maintenance, warranty) I don't know enough to provide any insight on those engines though.
 

petrel

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What are the displacement numbers for the engines? That should tell the tale. C12 is what- a hopped up 3196 w/ common rail fuel system? They are around in abundance, however, as Larry says and people will buy a Cat like there's nothing that could go wrong. The old 3196's were not too special.
 

Overkill

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778 lbs. that a lot of weigh to save. Plus CAT parts are very available & the C-12 sports a great reputation. In addition on resale CAT power is always a big plus.

778 pounds on a boat that will weigh 25-30k. Minor, If you are planing a true 44 Calvin offshore lobsterboat, don't worry about weight, worry about comfort and stability. Plan for the weight with your reduction gearing and prop. If your looking for a race boat 800 pounds might make a difference but you'll pay for it the other 200 days a year.
 

Poco Loco

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Since shopping for a engine for my Calvin Beal 44 project I have had numerous engine manufacturers offerings. Using just using there engine spec information the Caterpillar C-12 has slightly better both power and equal fuel consumption than the FTP 750.

According to there charts:

Cat 705 HP produces 398 HP with 18.9 g/hr @ 1900 RPM. weighs 2308 lbs

FTP 750 HP produces 370 HP with 18.9 g/hr @1900 RPM weighs 3086 llbs

Given the C-12 weighs 778 pounds less and the chart information is correct it would seem that the Cat would out perform the FTP.

Just wondering how these two engines perform in the real world situations?
The C-12 Acert is listed at 2588lbs in their specs at
Caterpillar Marine: Applications › Pleasure Craft › Products which is still 500 lbs lighter but you are comparing a recreational rating for the Cat vs the commercial rating for the FPT. It does not make sense that the 12 liter would outperform 13 liters. I could be wrong.
 

lobster12

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The C-12 Acert is listed at 2588lbs in their specs at
Caterpillar Marine: Applications › Pleasure Craft › Products which is still 500 lbs lighter but you are comparing a recreational rating for the Cat vs the commercial rating for the FPT. It does not make sense that the 12 liter would outperform 13 liters. I could be wrong.

I got those figures from the spec sheet that was attached to my quote. The FPT has 12.7 L and the C-12 has 12.1 if memory serves me right I left the paper work at my shop. Not a huge difference in displacement. I am not trying to play cheer leader for either manufacturer.
 

lobster12

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The C-12 Acert is listed at 2588lbs in their specs at
Caterpillar Marine: Applications › Pleasure Craft › Products which is still 500 lbs lighter but you are comparing a recreational rating for the Cat vs the commercial rating for the FPT. It does not make sense that the 12 liter would outperform 13 liters. I could be wrong.

Again I don't have the paper work in front of me so you are probably right to be honest I have not gotten back to the Cat rep yet.
 

FPTMarineDiesel

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I assume it is a C-12? How does it go?
Both of these engines are EUI engines, the C13 is an overhead cam engine and has not any history of head gasket issues, cylinder head warpage issues, coolant creep through the head gasket into the oil through the camshaft valley areas. The C12 has all of these issues, a long history of them in fact along with Charge air cooler issues, search the web for lawsuits against the 3196 and C12 for these problems. Yes, the C12 is lighter, it really is not much larger than the 3176B which was the original C10 and is based off of a light weight truck engine for line haul fleets. The C13 FPT engine is built to be used as a heavy duty industrial engine, along with truck and marine markets in mind during development and has a strong reputation for reliability, power and fuel economy. The 3196 is 1.9L displacement per cylinder so 11.4L in total. The 705 Mhp engine is not a commercial certified Tier 2 EPA compliant engine I don't believe any longer, the 660 Mhp version is though, that is why richardh mentioned 660 Mhp. You should reach out to Family Traditions, he owned a 40' RP with a C12 CAT, you should ask him about performance comparisons, especially at slower rpm speeds like you are stating here, ask him about fuel consumption on a daily basis and the power output. He will give you his honest opinion, he know owns a 42' H&H W and he burns way less fuel a day, and spends most of his time cruising at 1800-1900 rpm, plenty of power and a much larger boat. He burns almost 33 % less fuel on a daily basis then he did with the C12 CAT Acert engine and that was with a very efficient hull that the C12 was in. Don't believe everything that is printed on marketing brochures.

We can support with parts and service in your area, don't worry about that. No, I will not state that we have the same level of distribution as CAT does at this point in our history here in the states, but neither did CAT when they first got going either... It all takes a little time to develop. But the FPT product has some really nice features and benefits and all of the customers that own them will tell you that the power is there and the fuel economy is as well.

Thanks,

Peter
 
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FPTMarineDiesel

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I got those figures from the spec sheet that was attached to my quote. The FPT has 12.7 L and the C-12 has 12.1 if memory serves me right I left the paper work at my shop. Not a huge difference in displacement. I am not trying to play cheer leader for either manufacturer.
FPT engine is a 12.88L engine not 12.7L for the C13. The C12 CAT is 1.9L per cylinder displacement so it is 6 x 1.9 which is 11.4L displacement. I actually just looked up the C12 Acert and it appears that CAT has it listed at 11.99 for displacement so the bore must have been increased from the 3196 which was 1.9L of displacement, so there is a correction to the above, that is for the 3196 only.
 
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FPTMarineDiesel

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What are the displacement numbers for the engines? That should tell the tale. C12 is what- a hopped up 3196 w/ common rail fuel system? They are around in abundance, however, as Larry says and people will buy a Cat like there's nothing that could go wrong. The old 3196's were not too special.
C12 is exactly what you stated the 3196 with some slight improvements, but still has mid camshaft design with graphite backed cylinder head gasket, push rod and cam follower design and very thin cylinder head that is very susceptible to head warp at high power and thermal heat loading. As a technician at Milton CAT, I spent many days replacing head gaskets, shaving cylinder heads and re-torquing cylinder heads for these engines in line haul fleet trucks at 425 hp because of torsional block twist and head warping issues which in turn caused coolant to creep through the graphite backed head gasket and put coolant in the oil. This was a very regular occurrence and was never really resolved with new head gasket, new head bolts and higher head bolt torque to yeild method. It was more of a bandaid solution that got the engines out of standard and maybe extended warranty.

Now imagine how long that engine is going to hold up to a boat at the size of 44' CB at 235 more hp out of the same base engine parts and design? Just something to think about for people that don't know the internal design and engineering of the product along with it's past history in the field.

I am not one to normally downplay anyones engine, but I had a long history in the field with on-highway business and the base engine is still the same today as it always has been with some attempts at trying to fix the above issues and I know from many years of my own experience that even at much lower horsepower, the issues were very vast with this engine product. I hate to have to say it, really.
 
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lobster12

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Both of these engines are EUI engines, the C13 is an overhead cam engine and has not any history of head gasket issues, cylinder head warpage issues, coolant creep through the head gasket into the oil through the camshaft valley areas. The C12 has all of these issues, a long history of them in fact along with Charge air cooler issues, search the web for lawsuits against the 3196 and C12 for these problems. Yes, the C12 is lighter, it really is not much larger than the 3176B which was the original C10 and is based off of a light weight truck engine for line haul fleets. The C13 FPT engine is built to be used as a heavy duty industrial engine, along with truck and marine markets in mind during development and has a strong reputation for reliability, power and fuel economy. The C12 is 1.9L displacement per cylinder so 11.4L in total. The 705 Mhp engine is not a commercial certified Tier 2 EPA compliant engine, the 660 Mhp version is though, that is why richardh mentioned 660Mhp. You should reach out to Family Traditions, he owned a 40' RP with a C12 CAT, you should ask him about performance comparisons, especially at slower rpm speeds like you are stating here, ask him about fuel consumption on a daily basis and the power output. He will give you his honest opinion, he know owns a 42' H&H W and he burns way less fuel a day, and spends most of his time cruising at 1800-1900 rpm, plenty of power and a much larger boat. He burns almost 33 % less fuel on a daily basis then he did with the C12 CAT Acert engine and that was with a very efficient hull that the C12 was in. Don't believe everything that is printed on marketing brochures.

We can support with parts and service in your area, don't worry about that. No, I will not state that we have the same level of distribution as CAT does at this point in our history here in the states, but neither did CAT when they first got going either... It all takes a little time to develop. But the FPT product has some really nice features and benefits and all of the customers that own them will tell you that the power is there and the fuel economy is as well.

Thanks,

Peter

Peter I am not rushing to buy anything yet. You are right you can not believe everything you read. That is why I am asking for real world experiences. There is no rush to make a hasty decision on the engine the hull won't be available till late July. Plenty of time to do my due diligence on all available engines. Also plenty of time to get a few rides on some 44's and get input from there owners as you suggested.
 

FPTMarineDiesel

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Past History links, could all be better now?

BoatUS. com Consumer Protection Bureau

The information is older but it just supports some of what I am stating so that people don't think I made it up. Like I said, it is from my own personal hands on experience that I speak on this thread, not as a sales guy.


Also, keep in mind that starting this year, CAT is in a JV with FPT for a C13 that FPT is supplying to them for their recreational business. CAT did not develop an engine on their own to move forward in the business but came to FPT for the solution.
 

FPTMarineDiesel

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Peter I am not rushing to buy anything yet. You are right you can not believe everything you read. That is why I am asking for real world experiences. There is no rush to make a hasty decision on the engine the hull won't be available till late July. Plenty of time to do my due diligence on all available engines. Also plenty of time to get a few rides on some 44's and get input from there owners as you suggested.
Yes, I understand and I am just posting some of my own experience that I had working with the CAT product for a good many years, specifically this product that you are comparing to the FPT product, so it was relevant.. It isn't personal, don't worry, I don't mean to write it in that way, just black and white is all. I am not pushing you, you were just looking for feedback and mine is purely impartial, but factual for sure. No worries and no pressure. Just some comments to the thread is all.

Thanks.
 

FPTMarineDiesel

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Peter I am not rushing to buy anything yet. You are right you can not believe everything you read. That is why I am asking for real world experiences. There is no rush to make a hasty decision on the engine the hull won't be available till late July. Plenty of time to do my due diligence on all available engines. Also plenty of time to get a few rides on some 44's and get input from there owners as you suggested.
Please reach out to Family Tradition 42' H&H Wide Thread on here as well, he surely will give you an honest opinion and he has owned both products now, so there isn't anyone better to get a real feeling on the two from than him I don't believe. Up to you though. He get's on here from time to time and is part owner of James Rich Boatyard.

Thanks.
 
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FPTMarineDiesel

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Please reach out to Family Tradition 42' H&H Wide Thread on here as well, he surely will give you an honest opinion and he has owned both products now, so there isn't anyone better to get a real feeling on the two from than him I don't believe. Up to you though. He get's on here from time to time and is part owner of James Rich Boatyard.

Thanks.
FamTrad is the name of the guy that you would want to speak with, not Family Tradition, although that is his boat name in the 42' Wide thread.
 

tunaorlater

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Because I know you have researched them all I ask why the d12/13 volvo is not a consideration?
 
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