gear rotation

oldshell55

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anyone know if a TD507 can be run in either direction . to fit either a right or left rotating engine?
 

petrel

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Pretty sure they will go either way, probably just have to change the pump around. I've got ZFs on 671s and they require a special reverse pump if the engine is not standard rotation, but I think the pump can be reversed on a TD. Someone here must know.
 

tunafishhkg

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I know TD 507 unless real old, can run in forward or rev and a pump is a pump so nothing mechanical to do to reverse it since it only supplies pressure to a piston to push the plates together. The engine rotation is the same and that's what determines pump rotation I believe as Petrel was saying. Their is a slight different gear ratio and noise in rev because you are spinning an extra gear and shaft but its not much unless you are really comparing and splitting hairs.
 

jwalka51

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Yup, My twin disc 5050 is like that. You can put a left hand prop on the boat today and put a right hand on her tomorrow. Just change the direction of the control cable.
 
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I know TD 507 unless real old, can run in forward or rev and a pump is a pump so nothing mechanical to do to reverse it since it only supplies pressure to a piston to push the plates together. The engine rotation is the same and that's what determines pump rotation I believe as Petrel was saying. Their is a slight different gear ratio and noise in rev because you are spinning an extra gear and shaft but its not much unless you are really comparing and splitting hairs.
Be careful here. There is a big difference between taking two standard rotation engines and running one gear in the forward direction and the other gear in the opposite direction to achieve counter rotation of the props in a twin screw boat, or taking a reverse rotation engine and turning the gear's input shaft the other way. I never worked for Twin-Disc, but I can tell you if you take a ZF gear and turn the input shaft backwards the pump changes the oil flow direction and tries to pull oil from the shift control block instead of the case sump.
 

tunafishhkg

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Be careful here. There is a big difference between taking two standard rotation engines and running one gear in the forward direction and the other gear in the opposite direction to achieve counter rotation of the props in a twin screw boat, or taking a reverse rotation engine and turning the gear's input shaft the other way. I never worked for Twin-Disc, but I can tell you if you take a ZF gear and turn the input shaft backwards the pump changes the oil flow direction and tries to pull oil from the shift control block instead of the case sump.

Most all diesels or newer ones, are standard rotation with the old Detroit 2cycle one of the exceptions that could easily be changed, that could be set up for reverse rotation. As you correctly state, if you turn the input shaft in reverse, the pressure pump would pump pressure to the sump and trans would not work IE: "engine rotation determines pump direction" as I stated. Question was can you take a TD 507 and run it in rev which can be done because the reverse pack is engineered as strong as the forward pack that on some older designed trans ,had a weaker rev pack or lubrication ability that would not work out long term in rev. It simply takes an extra gear to get reverse compared to forward and that's why the slight ratio and noise difference from the longer route of power transference. Not enough difference to lose the advantage of prop walk depending on port or starboard helm location on a single screw boat or counter rotating props on twin screw boats. Some harpoon guys would make sure to use the shorter route of power in forward gear to avoid any extra noise however slight it is nowadays and deal with the loss of prop walk advantage. Just a simple explanation to make sure it was not misunderstood.:p
 
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petrel

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Might not have been the original question, but the pump issue comes into play when you do it and Mike was just elaborating on what I said about the ZF and how it needs a special reverse pump, but I think TD is different and you can use the same oil pump turned around. Just a word of caution for the DIY'er- don't just bolt it up and start it up.
 

tunafishhkg

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Must have been late night or ADD:confused:, that the second part of the question about "using different engine rotation" was not directly answered. Rare to have nonstandard rotation diesel engines and getting one that's different, it was the question and you both are right!! Thanks for clarifying!
 
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hntrss

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My previous boat had a 507a and a wrong handed wheel. I switched the cables and ran it right handed for 2000 trouble free hours. If it were only meant to run one direction it would surely be labled as such. IMO
 

tunafishhkg

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Original question was kinda put as a two part question. Normally will not be an issue and doubt it will be for the OP since almost all diesels are a standard rotation but OP did say different engine rotation. The answer, on a TD 507, you would need a different pressure pump setup not trans, if somehow you got a nonstandard rotation engine and mated it to the 507 set up for a particular rotation since the pump pressure direction is dependent on input shaft direction. The 507 and I would think all current trans of this type and size are designed to output in either direction so you would not need to change engine rotation to change the shaft rotation as we all have experienced and pointed out. LOL
 
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One other word of caution but not an answer to the original question. With counter rotating engines (gas or diesel) being a thing of the past, transmission manufacturers made their gears capable of transmitting full power through either clutchpack and don't designate which is the forward "A" position and which is the reverse "B" position. The gears (forward pinion, reverse pinion) and shafts (input, and counter) are always engaged to the bull gear on the output shaft, it's just a matter of which clutchpack you elect to lockup that changes propshaft direction. On some gears (like the ZF 2550) the forward and reverse clutches are both on the input shaft and the countershaft is just there to receive power and transmit it to the bull gear on the output shaft. There is no real noise, ratio difference, or power change as everything gear wise is always meshed together and spinning. I say all that to mention this. With all of us these days turning the transmission input shafts the same direction (counterclockwise facing flywheel) some manufactures like ZF went to directional clutches (spiral grooves cut into the clutch faces)on some models. This was done for better cooling and improved troll characteristics. With the clutches installed backwards ( easy to do- I've done it) or otherwise turned in the wrong direction (reversed input rotation) , it leads to chronic overheating of the gear oil and clutch failure.
 
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Toolate

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So Mike, for a ZF 630A (popular and I am putting one in my boat), is this the case? Interesting because the are marketed as either/or (A/B) as far as I knew anyway. Are you saying that running this gear counterclockwise/using a LH wheel will make this gear last longer?

No info on this from ZF in any of the info they sent me or on their site.
 
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So Mike, for a ZF 630A (popular and I am putting one in my boat), is this the case? Interesting because the are marketed as either/or (A/B) as far as I knew anyway. Are you saying that running this gear counterclockwise/using a LH wheel will make this gear last longer?

No info on this from ZF in any of the info they sent me or on their site.
No, that gear, like most hydraulic gears will run equally well in either forward or reverse and ZF doesn't designate which is which. In a twin screw application identical model gears are side by side, one shifting one way and the other shifting the opposite way to achieve prop counter rotation, but the engines are turning in the same direction and so then are the transmission input shafts. And I haven't noticed one gear to last longer than the other. My word of caution was for someone who might run into problems turning the input shaft backwards with a reverse rotation engine. When putting my boat together the only reason I picked a right hand wheel over a left is because my propeller supplier had a RH one in stock.
 
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Toolate

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No, that gear, like most hydraulic gears will run equally well in either forward or reverse and ZF doesn't designate which is which. In a twin screw application identical model gears are side by side, one shifting one way and the other shifting the opposite way to achieve prop counter rotation, but the engines are turning in the same direction and so then are the transmission input shafts. And I haven't noticed one gear to last longer than the other. My word of caution was for someone who might run into problems turning the input shaft backwards with a reverse rotation engine. When putting my boat together the only reason I picked a right hand wheel over a left is because my propeller supplier had a RH one in stock.

Thank you- I like to back to port so I will. Technology has come a long way in this respect.
 
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