Is a new engine required in a new build?

[Badlatitude]

Is a new engine required by law for a new build? Is this some EPA requirement only if a boat builder installs/provides said engine? or does it have something to do with the year of the hull?

How does this work? Ive never had anyone even ask about the year/make model engine while inspecting anything ive owned.

 

[Bpackish]

I'm no authority. Someone better informed will chime in im sure. I'm told it has to be a tier 2 compliant I believe. I'm not sure if it can be a rebuilt tier 2 but look forward to hearing the answers....

 

[Badlatitude]

Does that mean an electronic diesel is required? Not really a fan

 

[Bpackish]

I believe so. When I was looking into it. I have an engine with zero hours factory rebuild and I couldn't use it. So I'm going to by an in between boat and use it in that.

 

[badabing]

i think there is a loophole, that if it is a new build by a fisherman for himself then he can put it anything his heart desires......this is kind of a gray area and i know that is the way a few have been able to put reman cummins in new builds but that is nothing like putting a 6-71 in a new build which i think falls under the same loophole

 

[Blitzen]

I am not 100% positive on this but this is what I believe to be true. A boat builder can not offer you a new boat with an engine that does not meet current rules as a new boat, for either commercial or non-commercial use.

But as a backyard boat builder you can install yourself, your engine of choice as long as you are non-commercial.

 

[Badlatitude]

Can a builder or finisher install an engine for a customer after the boat is titled in the owners name?

I havent found anything used that we really like and I cant afford to spend a new electronic monster for a new build but could probably swing a reman mechanical cummins etc. Not to mention I have no intention of owning an electronic diesel even if my budget was open check book.

The though of the thing just shutting down over a sensor or something stupid while offshore scares me.

 

[Badlatitude]

i think there is a loophole, that if it is a new build by a fisherman for himself then he can put it anything his heart desires......this is kind of a gray area and i know that is the way a few have been able to put reman cummins in new builds but that is nothing like putting a 6-71 in a new build which i think falls under the same loophole

LOL the detroit topic was just for discussion in general. Ive been seeing the prices on reman cummins and it really would bring a new build price into something we can manage without going with a gasser

 

[F/V First Team]

Can of worms
Not touching this one

There are no engine police, just fyi

 

[tunaorlater]

I know a few people that have done it and sold the boats with no problem.

 

[Badlatitude]

Can of worms
Not touching this one

There are no engine police, just fyi

I can respect that. Im going to assume thoose laws are made for high production boats such as sea rays and bayliners and just go about my business on this one lol

 

[F/V First Team]

Ehhhhhh

Pockets are being lined, that's all I'm going to say

Anything goes in Canada, go figure

 

[BillD]

Cummins requires distributors to follow the EPA Tier guidelines. Possibly other manufacturers do the same.

For instance. I may want to buy a new RECON QSB 5.9 480 for a "new" build. Say a hull laid up in 2012 or 2013. Nope, has to be a new non-RECON QSB 5.9

Cummins Northeast would not sell me a Tier II compliant RECON, has to be a new engine.
A Cummins dealer "could" sell me a RECON QSB for the "new hull" but runs the risk of losing a dealership if "found out".

The builder?? Not sure what goes on with individual boat builders installing new RECON or non Tier compliant engines.

Here's the kicker. Let's say a builder or an owner buys a non-Tier compliant engine for a particular "new hull and then tries to "certify the engine" to start the warranty clock and runs into a "problem" with the manufacturer?

Who knows?? Maybe all smoke??? Like Travis says, what state or federal agency checks on this stuff ?

I'll ask this. Who are the other marine diesel manufacturers that offer a factory RECON program same as Cummins?

CAT?
Yanmar?
Volvo?
Sisu?
Any other ?

 

[Frank Grimes]

Let's shift gears a bit.

Travis, other than the prohibitive cost to purchase a new electronically controlled engine, what are the pitfalls to having one in a boat? As an industry participant, and presumably having seen or heard of issues such as shutting down on a whim due to a computer fault, would you take one offshore consistently in a sportfishing application, hypothetically speaking?

 

[F/V First Team]

They all sling their iron, under recons, short blocks, long blocks

It's not just Cummins

 

[F/V First Team]

So, there I was, taking a spin in the boat we just launched with my girl, pushing all the fancy buttons and twisting the knobs to make sure everything was properly shaken down during sea trials so I could run the boat from Maine to New York in the morning. Everything turned out fantastic, engine ran great, good healthy sound from the exhaust, excellent throttle response, enough to make your head surge back as you jam everything forward. Slid back to the float and tied up for the night, daylight quickly creeping up on me.

Fired the engine up in the morning, pulled away from the float, punched the throttle and began my trip.

At idle.

Wait a moment, where's my throttle response from last night?

Sensor went down over the night apparently, wouldn't show a fault on the panel so as far as I knew, everything was fan-frickin-tastic. Took the tech two hours to get up to me, after finally getting them on the phone. Checked it out with the fancy laptop and it was all great, he didn't believe that there was a problem. Tossed the ropes off the cleat and put it in gear, DING DING DING there's the problem. "You need a sensor" great, go grab it out of your van there and slap that sucker in, I am late to get this show on the road. "Oh, we don't have any in stock, so I don't have one. It will be at least 3 weeks before we get any in" Well now, you had best be making some phone calls because that's not going to fly. I don't care if you have to bend a fork into damned origami to get this pig up and running but it will be done today. (luckily for all parties involved my father stepped in at this point and asked if there were any other engines like the one in the boat in stock, there were, so he suggested that they pull the sensor out of that one and put it in this one so we could get the boat delivered) "But it's not the same color" Color comes in a can, go get the sensor. So the tech drove 1 hour south to meet up with another tech who drove one hour north. About 6 hours of downtime for a boost sensor. Crisp oxford white engine with a beige boost sensor. To the best of my knowledge that sensor is still in place and going strong.

When they work they work
When they don't work, chances are the words coming out of your mouth will make sailors blush and mechanics leave the room

It would be worth the investment to have a spare set of sensors, even when the sensors fail the computer resorts to come home mode so you should, in theory, be able to make it back to port. If you lose your electrical system you're screwed, best make a drogue and figure something else out.

 

[F/V First Team]

On the service side of things, the number one issue that I've encountered with electronically governed engines is the same one that mechanical engines have: Owners.

Low voltage is a killer, you remember that bad battery you were going to swap out last year but didn't and now you can't quite remember if it was number one or number two because it's a pain in the ass to crawl under the deck to check it out? Yeah, it's just screwed the pooch on your sea trial. Thanks.

The engine was running great now it won't start. Gee did you do anything to it? Of course not, I've had boats for decades! All I did was fiddle with these here wires and take all the cables apart and not put them back together in the right order or at all. Oh and I did some mechanic work while you were gone too, now I have a box of spare parts. Um, those are just "parts" not "spare parts"... *face palm* we're going to be here a while.

The engine is making a weird noise. Ok, can you describe it for me? No, you MUST come down RIGHT AWAY!!! Ok, so what's the strange noise? Don't you hear it??? I hear the engine running... EXACTLY! Um, so I'm a bit confused here, what's strange about this? Well it doesn't sound like my yanmar/cat/cummins/detroit/hamster on a wheel/etc etc etc... Why would it? It's not one of those engines, not quite sure what you want me to do, make it louder?? Could you? *face palm*

I think a sensor is gone in my engine, can you come check it out for me? Ok, I will be there in the morning. (is now morning) So, there's a hole here where a sensor is supposed to be... what's up with that? Well I told you a sensor was gone, didn't you bring some with you? Yes, but why is the sensor gone? I told you it was gone. Yes, but why is it gone? Oh, I wanted to see what it looked like, and I dropped it in the bilge. *face palm*

Shit happens, I get it
That's why I charge an hourly rate
Plus mileage

 

[Badlatitude]

Bill... Someone literally told you they would not sell you a recon engine without proof of what its going in?


Why do you want this engine?

Im going to put it in a golf cart .... You take cash?

 

[Badlatitude]

LMAO First Team... Gotta love time and materials.

 

[plowin]

I was told straight out that If I was putting the engine in a new build they would be happy to sell me a recon but, they would not sign off on commisioning the engine or honor the warranty. Even though it was a recon and less money than a new build it was still a lot of money to spend without any warranty at all. Neddless to say I went new and took it in the ass. This was about 3 months ago.