Trans Oil Sample - How bad is it?

Bill_N

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Got the oil sample results a TD 5061A -
Contaminants (ppm)​
Silicon (Si) 10​
Sodium (Na) 202​
Potassium (K) <5​
Water (%) <0.05

Dealer Comment: Note the comment that sodium levels are above normal indicating that there is a possibility of salt water contamination in the fluid. This could only come from the oil fill cap if loose for some reason or the oil cooler is leaking. I would recommend having the oil cooler removed and pressure tested to determine if it needs to be replaced.

So if the oil cooler was found to be leaking and was replaced. Would the gear be OK?

 

captainlarry84

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Tranny samples must be taken correctly. The proper way to sample is:
Get the tranny up to operating temperature
remove the dip stick & measure the length
The plastic insert tube must be 1/2 the length of the dipstick so you get the oil that is in suspension.

If the tube touches the bottom of the gear case you are not getting a true reading
Same goes if the sample was taken by draining some oil.

Gears like motors always have some debris laying in the bottom. So make sure it was done as posted.

As for the gear it most likely is OK. But I would do double oil change to make sure then in 50 hours resample.
 

MDI45

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Absolutely......gear coolers will go from time to time...which is due to not changing the zincs on the cooler .....change the cooler ..and change the oil twice and your good to go
 
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Bill_N

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The mechanic was measuring the tube so it sounds like he got sample from the suspended oil and it was right after we ran it. Thanks for the info!
 

FPTMarineDiesel

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Got the oil sample results a TD 5061A -
Contaminants (ppm)​
Silicon (Si) 10​
Sodium (Na) 202​
Potassium (K) <5​
Water (%) <0.05

Dealer Comment: Note the comment that sodium levels are above normal indicating that there is a possibility of salt water contamination in the fluid. This could only come from the oil fill cap if loose for some reason or the oil cooler is leaking. I would recommend having the oil cooler removed and pressure tested to determine if it needs to be replaced.

So if the oil cooler was found to be leaking and was replaced. Would the gear be OK?

Do you have any more of the sample that shows the metallic portions that should have also been sampled? The sodium is really not that high and the water content is not either, so I would say that you had a very small problem based off of that sample but with out the metalurgical properties of the sample it is really hard to say.
 

Bill_N

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DATE SAMPLED​
01-Feb-14

DATE RECEIVED​
07-Feb-14

DATE REPORTED​
11-Feb-14

SIF NO.​
TIME ON UNIT​
TIME ON OIL​
OIL BRAND​
OIL TYPE​
OIL GRADE​
OIL ADDED​
FILTER​
OIL CHANGED​
WO NUMBER​
13441321​
4100​
Unidentified​
Unidentified​
Unknown​
Not Applicable​
Metals (ppm)​
Iron (Fe) 63​
Chromium (Cr) <1​
Lead (Pb) 107​
Copper (Cu) 98​
Tin (Sn) 9​
Aluminium (Al) 15​
Nickel (Ni) <1​
Silver (Ag) <1​
Titanium (Ti) <1​
Vanadium (V) <1​
Contaminants (ppm)​
Silicon (Si) 10​
Sodium (Na) 202​
Potassium (K) <5​
Water (%) <0.05​
Additives (ppm)​
Magnesium (Mg) <1​
Calcium (Ca) 1197​
Barium (Ba) <1​
Phosphorus (P) 525​
Zinc (Zn) 597​
Molybdenum (Mo) <1​
Boron (B) <5​
Physical Tests​
Viscosity (cSt 100C) 10.9​
Solids (%) <0.1​
Physical / Chemical​
Acid Number (mgKOH/g) 0.79


DIAGNOSIS​
All wear rates normal. Sodium level (possible salt​
water residue or from operational environment)​
elevated. Other contaminant levels acceptable.​


This is all the data. The only thing flagged was the sodium level.

 
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[email protected]

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Got the oil sample results a TD 5061A -


Contaminants (ppm)



Silicon (Si) 10



Sodium (Na) 202


Potassium (K) <5

Water (%) <0.05

Dealer Comment: Note the comment that sodium levels are above normal indicating that there is a possibility of salt water contamination in the fluid. This could only come from the oil fill cap if loose for some reason or the oil cooler is leaking. I would recommend having the oil cooler removed and pressure tested to determine if it needs to be replaced.

So if the oil cooler was found to be leaking and was replaced. Would the gear be OK?

The gear oil pressure is fifty PSI in neutral (some have full engagement pressure in neutral), engaged is over three hundred PSI while raw water pressure is supposed to be below twelve PSI. With a failed cooler this results in gear oil going into the raw water, not water into the gear. Symptoms of a failed transmission cooler with raw water cooling are rainbow oil slick in the vessels wash and vanishing transmission oil. If the gear has water intrusion but it's so slight that the oil isn't turned to milkshake, and the gear isn't "making oil" with unexplained high oil levels it's most likely OK.
 
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[email protected]

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One other thing about oil samples from components that have slightly elevated levels but otherwise no obvious problems. Oil sampling is most advantageous to fleets that build a long history with a particular unit and then notice a sudden change in a level that may indicate something is beginning to fail or change. While working for ZF we took a sample from a worn but perfectly good functioning gear and sent it to 4 different labs. We got four different results with, I think it was Ashland, being the only one that didn't predict total gloom. As far as I know that gear is still in service. One off sampling generally won't show anything unless it's drastic and you can normally pick that out by finding simple things like neutral shaft drag, burnt oil, low engagement pressure, and or metal particles in the filter media.
 
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Bill_N

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Thanks for the info. Since this came up in the survey and the owner doesn't have any prior samples I'm still going to ask that the cooler be pulled and checked. If there's no leak and no other signs of where it could be coming from then I'd be OK with keeping an eye on it.
 

Bill_N

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Broker called me back on this at lunchtime. I guess there was an issue last year with low gear oil levels, oil sheen on the water. Mechanic pulled the cooler, found leak and repaired it. Said he pumped out the gear oil at that time rather than draining it. So the mechanic is saying it's OK.

I haven't gotten back to him yet but I think the least he could do is change the gear oil again. It has to go back to Beaufort for something else so he could do another oil sample then.
 

[email protected]

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Broker called me back on this at lunchtime. I guess there was an issue last year with low gear oil levels, oil sheen on the water. Mechanic pulled the cooler, found leak and repaired it. Said he pumped out the gear oil at that time rather than draining it. So the mechanic is saying it's OK.

I haven't gotten back to him yet but I think the least he could do is change the gear oil again. It has to go back to Beaufort for something else so he could do another oil sample then.
Sounds like you are getting to the bottom of it. If you can turn the prop shaft by hand or with a small adjustable with the engine shutdown and the shaft doesn't turn in neutral with the engine running, and she has the right engagement pressure my guess is everything is OK. Transmissions of course use roller bearings, not Babbitt like an engine, so it takes a lot of water to damage them. With their tiny oil control passages, things like dried silicone sealant (always use Locktite 518 or equivalent on gear sealing surfaces), or debris will always do more damage than a small amount of water. Either way, absolutely ask for an oil change, it certainly can't hurt.
 
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petrel

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Water is heavier than oil, so I would say draining (not pumping out) the clutch is the best way to get rid of it.
 

captainlarry84

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Water is heavier than oil, so I would say draining (not pumping out) the clutch is the best way to get rid of it.

Good advice. Also pull the tranny screen filter once it is drained and see what is in it. Most metal and debris will be in that screen.
 

Bill_N

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Mechanic pressure tested the cooler which was OK, drained oil from bottom, refilled and took it for a 30 mile run. He's going to take another oil sample later this week and send it to the same lab. He marked the stick before the run and it was still on the line after the run. He thinks it's all set.
 


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